The cars and bikes thread!

[geoffbot]

@Samanator like I say even the least efficient electric car (taycan turbo s) powered by the dirtiest electricity (coal) still has lesser co2 emissions over their life than the most efficient petrol car (some hyundai).

Re towing sure, if you tell me its not possible I believe you. There may be applications it's not yet suited to I'm sure.

[Samanator]

@Samanator like I say even the least efficient electric car (taycan turbo s) powered by the dirtiest electricity (coal) still has lesser co2 emissions over their life than the most efficient petrol car (some hyundai).

Re towing sure, if you tell me its not possible I believe you. There may be applications it's not yet suited to I'm sure.

Also not true. The hand book on this is a constantly updated book that is 14 years form the first publication called How green are the Bananas. Electric vehicles break even with ICE vehicles right at the point that the batteries need replacing. It’s. At the 17 year point that a EV enjoyed a year of better than the ICE vehicle assuming it is still in use.

EV make sense in urban areas that smog is a factor knowing that their higher carbon foot print is moved to hopefully a more rural area that can absorb it. ICE greener during common ownership periods. No environmentalists question this.


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[happyscrappyheropup]

Also not true. The hand book on this is a constantly updated book that is 14 years form the first publication called How green are the Bananas. Electric vehicles break even with ICE vehicles right at the point that the batteries need replacing. It’s. At the 17 year point that a EV enjoyed a year of better than the ICE vehicle assuming it is still in use.

EV make sense in urban areas that smog is a factor knowing that their higher carbon foot print is moved to hopefully a more rural area that can absorb it. ICE greener during common ownership periods. No environmentalists question this.


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This is a good article, using data from Argonne Labs GREET model.

https://www.reuters.com/business/aut...rs-2021-06-29/

It shows that break even depends greatly on the source of energy for electric cars, but in the US the break even is under 20,000 miles with our current mix of fossil fuels and renewable energy.

[wschofield3]

Piping in as this has been a point of discussion with friends recently.

There is a point all or many are missing. Battery technology will enable an up to 2K mile range in the next few years without the pollutants when recycled, and, able to charge almost an infinite amount of times. It has been widely reported. Nano technology, solid state and other chemical based options are on the way.

Introducing new battery technology slowly, building up the grid in the same manner and making sure parts, especially batteries, are recyclable, will all come to fruition. Stating the obvious - the grid will not be taxed as demand will decrease with better technology.

We need to stop looking at this like every EV will be on the road tomorrow.

I agree with Raza. I've driven a Tesla Plaid, it's fast, but my GLI runs rings around it handling wise. Drove a Lucid last week, it is better, almost very good, but it's heavy and a bit lumbering. It could be my next car in a few years though - we'll see.

[Samanator]

This is a good article, using data from Argonne Labs GREET model.

https://www.reuters.com/business/aut...rs-2021-06-29/

It shows that break even depends greatly on the source of energy for electric cars, but in the US the break even is under 20,000 miles with our current mix of fossil fuels and renewable energy.

Good , but according to this https://www.eia.gov/tools/faqs/faq.php?id=427&t=3 60% of the plants are fossil fuels. Add that some of the renewable are also emission levels close to fossil fuels like wood. In my state here is the break down:

Characteristic	Share of electricity generation
Natural gas	73.9%
Nuclear	11.5%
Coal	7.5%
Solar photovoltaic	3.7%

I think the starting figure in your link is a best case which is not the normal. I don't consider the EPA a reliable source and I would like to see a more diverse group of Universities other than just the University of Chicago. Again the book I referenced has been the environmentalist bible recognized world wide on this and has been continually updated to consider changes in technology, manufacturing and thousands of other factors. It's been more than a year since I read it so an update may be there now.

[happyscrappyheropup]

Again the book I referenced has been the environmentalist bible recognized world wide on this and has been continually updated to consider changes in technology, manufacturing and thousands of other factors. It's been more than a year since I read it so an update may be there now.

Are you talking about How Bad Are Bananas?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/How_Bad_Are_Bananas%3F

The book is written by British writer and academic Mike Berners-Lee, who acknowledges throughout the book his use of estimates and imperfect calculations.^[1][2] It was first published in 2010; a second edition was published in the UK in 2020, and an "Updated North American edition", retitled The Carbon Footprint of Everything, in 2022.^[2]

[Samanator]

Piping in as this has been a point of discussion with friends recently.

There is a point all or many are missing. Battery technology will enable an up to 2K mile range in the next few years without the pollutants when recycled, and, able to charge almost an infinite amount of times. It has been widely reported. Nano technology, solid state and other chemical based options are on the way.

Introducing new battery technology slowly, building up the grid in the same manner and making sure parts, especially batteries, are recyclable, will all come to fruition. Stating the obvious - the grid will not be taxed as demand will decrease with better technology.

We need to stop looking at this like every EV will be on the road tomorrow.

I agree with Raza. I've driven a Tesla Plaid, it's fast, but my GLI runs rings around it handling wise. Drove a Lucid last week, it is better, almost very good, but it's heavy and a bit lumbering. It could be my next car in a few years though - we'll see.

This aligns with my point. To quote a few environmentalist Ev tech at the moment is half baked. Too many early adopters would kill this. Their recommendation except in highly polluted urban areas (recomend EV) were plug in hybrids. This I can agree with, but even those in many cases are half baked. If it can't do over 30mi on a charge it does not allow use for the average standard daily commutes. Factor in battery degradation and this need to be in the higher 30's. The bulk of the plug ins are barely over the teens or less. last year when my wife and I did the exercise there were three plug in hybrids that were over 30 and only one sort of met 50% of our needs. Now the Jeep Grand Cherokee 4xe is the only vehicle plug in that seems viable. If it truly gets the 25 mi on all electric and can actually tow 6000 lbs with a 4 cyl engine then it may be an option.

[Raza]

The EV debate aside, I have a question.

Can EVs drive underwater?

A combustion engine can’t run underwater because you need oxygen for combustion, among a host of other problems with water getting in engines and what not. But EVs don’t need combustion. As I understand batteries, which is, admittedly, a rudimentary understanding at best, they use chemical reaction to create energy. So, no O2 needed. Assuming like swimming pool conditions, so pressure isn’t a real concern, could you drive an EV underwater?

[geoffbot]

The EV debate aside, I have a question.

Can EVs drive underwater?

A combustion engine can’t run underwater because you need oxygen for combustion, among a host of other problems with water getting in engines and what not. But EVs don’t need combustion. As I understand batteries, which is, admittedly, a rudimentary understanding at best, they use chemical reaction to create energy. So, no O2 needed. Assuming like swimming pool conditions, so pressure isn’t a real concern, could you drive an EV underwater?

This is a more interesting question than carbon footprint which I clearly don't care about cos I drive an M4! Dunno.

[geoffbot]

IS NOTHING SACRED ANY MORE?!

https://www.thedrive.com/news/the-ni...ric-suv-report

First the mustang, now this.

As I've said I don't mind electric cars conceptually, but don't denegrate the skyline's fine name