The cars and bikes thread!

[happyscrappyheropup]

If that’s the case, I’m happy to be proven wrong (though all my other complaints about EVs still stand).

I'm in agreement regarding electrics. I said it about my friend's Model S Plaid - it's fun launching a few times but otherwise it's not fun to drive.

But, for the vsst majority of drivers, electrics are a good step towards greener transport. And the cleaner power generation becomes, they get even better.

[crownpuller]

Boys, electric cars are coming. They are the future. Accept it, then, be objective about whether you want fake shifts or not, simple yes or no!

I'm not completely blinkered, they're very much a part of modern (and future) motoring and there's no disputing their benefits and abilities compared to ICE cars, and I do accept it; I even admire the phenomenal rate of progress with their development: I just don't want one.

[geoffbot]

Hmm, well, it's not quite as clear as "electric is better, end of story." With ICE and hybrids, yes there are greenhouse gas emissions. However, with electrics, you need to consider the generation source for the electricity. Is it wind or solar? OK, you win. Is the electric plant powered by natural gas or coal? Uh oh, maybe you don't win. Nuclear? OK, you win on emissions but lose on disposal of spent nuclear waste. If everyone is on electric, how will we expand and upgrade the grid to serve all of that, and can we do it with only wind and solar? Maybe not.... And what about the environmental effects of mining for all the rare earth materials needed to make batteries? Oh, and do we have a good plan for recycling all the spent batteries as opposed to disposing of them? Didn't think so...

Not saying electric won't eventually replace ICE, it will and should, but I think the runway is a lot longer than people think (or would like to think) it will be.

As far as electric cars themselves, I'm not prepared to buy one even if price were equal (which of course they're not, there's a large premium as the manufacturers shamelessly try to gouge the public for the privilege of going green):

1. Sure, if I'm only going to run errands around locally and be able to charge every night, no problem. But what about long trips, which given the size of our country, is a bigger issue than on the other side of the pond? Recent studies of non-Tesla commercial charging stations in the US found that on average at least 25-30% of them weren't working when they tried to use them, either because of poor maintenance or vandalism. That could be a real vacation-buster. And that's separate from there being enough of them, or the fact that you have to plant yourself for half an hour or more as opposed to five minutes for gas.

2. The electricity doesn't go out that frequently where we live, but it goes out regularly in many places, especially after storms. It can easily take days for the repairs to be made (this has happened even at my place, where it rarely occurs). Then, either you're stranded or you must have a backup ICE car.

3. Fun factor--I've driven Teslas, and they're fun in a straight line because, instant torque. But that's about it from a fun point of view. Maybe that will improve when they start making true high performance electrics, but I don't see how you get around have a couple thousand pounds of batteries and a 5000 pound car, which can pretend to be nimble but won't be.

4. I've said this before, but the law of unintended consequences is already taking place, with people who don't have driving skills suddenly being given a car that will accelerate 0-60 in 3.0 seconds, but have no clue that that doesn't affect stopping distances or cornering.

Bottom line IMO, there's a ton of stuff that needs to be sorted out before electric rule the roads, and it's gonna take a while. Even when it happens, I won't celebrate, not until there's conclusive proof that it's better for driving and the environment, and as practical as ICEs.

I've read a few studies, and like I say, I'm a petrolhead. My deduction is that even least efficient electric car (porsche taycan turbo s I think) powered by the dirtiest electricity (coal fired) vs the most efficient petrol car (hyundai or something, I forget)... The electric has lower co2 emissions over 7 years. Then compared to say a ferrari or something with similar performance - way off! Obviously you're better off not 'crushing' your 3 year hyundai ice car and buying a new taycan, we know that's not gonna add up (though selling it and someone else driving it thereafter can offset your new car co2 by a huge amount, complex story).

Anyway, it's coming, like it or not. To what degree is another matter. I think that in somewhere like Spain where most of the houses are apartments (without driveways of course) is gonna be a big roadblock for sure.

[Raza]

It’s more than just that. Not only the practical issues of finding charging stations for an urban population. Not only the practical issues of charge time. Not only the practical issues people unplugging cars left outside to charge. But also the infrastructure issues.

I don’t know what things are like in Europe, but I get the feeling in a lot of places in the US, the power grid is not nearly robust enough to accommodate electric cars at the level at which EV proponents want them. The tech is way outpacing the ability to support it.

EVs are an embarrassing stopgap solution being sold because they’re marketed well. The industry should be pouring resources into better solutions, like hydrogen fuel cells, which could likely take advantage of existing gas station station networks for distribution, making fueling up as easy as a gasoline or diesel car.

[geoffbot]

From our own national grid https://www.nationalgrid.com/stories...misconceptions

The most demand for electricity in recent years in the UK was for 62GW in 2002. Since then, the nation’s peak demand has fallen by roughly 16% due to improvements in energy efficiency.

Even if we all switched to EVs overnight, we believe demand would only increase by around 10%. So we’d still be using less power as a nation than we did in 2002 and this is well within the range of manageable load fluctuation.

The US grid is equally capable of handling more EVs on the roads – by the time 80% of the US owns an EV, this will only translate into a 10-15% increase in electricity consumption.1

Got a counter point from someone reputable?

[Raza]

From our own national grid https://www.nationalgrid.com/stories...misconceptions



Got a counter point from someone reputable?

https://cars.usnews.com/cars-trucks/...-electric-cars

The consensus seems to be “Yes, but wait…” Power generation is one thing, delivery and distribution is another. Will an overnight swap to EVs plunge the nation into darkness? No, of course not. But will we be able to get that power into the vehicles when and where it’s needed? That remains a big unknown.

It’s extremely easy to say “Yes, we can make enough power”. But that’s not the whole answer.

[geoffbot]

https://cars.usnews.com/cars-trucks/...-electric-cars

The consensus seems to be “Yes, but wait…” Power generation is one thing, delivery and distribution is another. Will an overnight swap to EVs plunge the nation into darkness? No, of course not. But will we be able to get that power into the vehicles when and where it’s needed? That remains a big unknown.

It’s extremely easy to say “Yes, we can make enough power”. But that’s not the whole answer.

That article pretty much says it won't be a problem at all...

[Raza]

That article pretty much says it won't be a problem at all...

You and I got different things out of that article.

[mlcor]

Here is an article that is pretty balanced in pointing out infrastructure issues here in the US, especially since it's coming from a company selling EV charging solutions.

https://www.evconnect.com/blog/can-t...ss%20the%20U.S.

[geoffbot]

Here is an article that is pretty balanced in pointing out infrastructure issues here in the US, especially since it's coming from a company selling EV charging solutions.

https://www.evconnect.com/blog/can-t...ss%20the%20U.S.

Can the power grid actually handle that many electric cars?



In simplest terms, yes, it can. But the deeper answer is a bit more complicated. The capacity is there, but to truly handle this new surge in EV grid demand, it will take planning on the part of utility companies across the U.S.

Can the Power Grid Handle the Growing EV Demand?

Despite the big increase, this new level of demand is manageable. But it will take planning on the part of utility companies in order to handle it well. Without proper preparation, a scenario in which our busiest cities see their electrical grids regularly overloaded during peak-demand times is not at all far-fetched. THIS IS AN ISSUE IN SURE - G



The good news is that, even though electric cars will take over eventually, the change in electrical demand won’t happen overnight. There’s time to plan and adjust, and utilities can do three things to prepare.

I didn't read after that

I'm sure it involves planning, what doesn't.