The cars and bikes thread!

[Raza]

I have owned a Porsche, though—I had a Panamera 4s, which I loved.


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“I owned a Porsche, it was a Panamera” is like saying “I owned a Porsche, it was a Cayenne” or “I owned a boat, it was a dingy missing an oar”. Sure, that’s technically true, but it doesn’t really follow the spirit of the words.

I love my Z4, but I do miss my Boxster S sometimes. I think about replacing my Z4 with another Boxster every once in a while, but I really have gotten into FR sports cars. Mid-engine has a lot of advantages, but the Boxster always rewarded grace more and the Z4 is happy to be rougher around the edges. These days, I don’t even know what I’d prefer. The ride in the Boxster is hands down better, no question. And these days, in my rapidly advancing age, I’ve come to enjoy the cruise almost as much as the push. Sometimes I wonder if I’d be happier in something like a BMW 3.0CS, draped in style, with nothing to prove.



Throw in a stereo that supports CarPlay and I’ve got everything I need, really.

[geoffbot]

Guilty as charged?


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Yep!

[geoffbot]

Those are nicer looking and better to drive. Harder to find in a manual, though.

Damn you're not wrong! Last year there were a few on Auto Trader at like 60k. Now there is 1, with what I think says 200k miles, and is so ugly I'm not sure I could live with it. And it's 85k http://www.autotrader.co.uk/car-deta...?atmobcid=soc3

[Raza]

Damn you're not wrong! Last year there were a few on Auto Trader at like 60k. Now there is 1, with what I think says 200k miles, and is so ugly I'm not sure I could live with it. And it's 85k http://www.autotrader.co.uk/car-deta...?atmobcid=soc3

Oh, poor thing. What have they done to you?

[mlcor]

“I owned a Porsche, it was a Panamera” is like saying “I owned a Porsche, it was a Cayenne” or “I owned a boat, it was a dingy missing an oar”. Sure, that’s technically true, but it doesn’t really follow the spirit of the words.

OK, then, please compose a similar comparison for my new Taycan.

Kidding of course, I don't have (or want) one...

[tribe125]

That is a very pretty car, and it’s the kind of ‘gentleman’s express’ that I really like - and like a lot more than overtly sporty cars. It almost looks Italian, or like a Bristol that wasn’t wilfully eccentric.

I’m not familiar with it, so can’t have been paying attention when it was around, or maybe there just weren’t many where I lived.

[geoffbot]

Oh, poor thing. What have they done to you?

Lol was considering posting that exact gif myself

[Henry Krinkle]

Damn you're not wrong! Last year there were a few on Auto Trader at like 60k. Now there is 1, with what I think says 200k miles, and is so ugly I'm not sure I could live with it. And it's 85k http://www.autotrader.co.uk/car-deta...?atmobcid=soc3

I work in the graphics/print industry.

You have to put NSFW warnings on things like that. Imagine if my employees caught me looking at that. I'd lose all their respect.

[Samanator]

“I owned a Porsche, it was a Panamera” is like saying “I owned a Porsche, it was a Cayenne” or “I owned a boat, it was a dingy missing an oar”. Sure, that’s technically true, but it doesn’t really follow the spirit of the words.

I've owned a 911 and it's such a single purpose car in my world that it barely got over 1K-2K miles a year. Since I still have the XK8 I have my limited use vehicle so I don't need a second. Shopping a Porsche would have to be a Panamera or a Cayenne . I've driven both and in all honesty unless you have the latest generation that is currently available of a 911 the current generation of these will do everything the previous generation 911 did. These are multi purpose vehicles that I can actually use and still reap 98% of the Porsche driving experience and seat at least 4 people while being able to haul things.. Plus you can tow a boat behind the Cayenne which is never going to happen with the 911. In my analogy the 911 is the Yacht (given what they now cost and even Boxers and Cayman can easily exceed $100K) that has titanium mooring cables welded to the ship and the anchors on the cables other end were sank in the concrete seawall as it was poured. Nice to look at, but it's never really going to go anywhere except maybe a coffee or breakfast run on Sunday (I should mention all of these are between .25-1.5 miles from the house). The reason these are some of the brands top sellers is that they are true Porsches that can actually be used everyday and have utility. Porsche admits they would not exist as a company without the Cayenne. I've had my 911, but if I'm shopping Porsche these two are the most likely candidates with the Cayenne being the more likely.

I'm not ready for a full electric vehicle (Because they still think 220 miles range is sufficient range...I believe it need to be at least double that and maybe a bit slower), but I would embrace a plug in hybrid version of either the Panamera or the Cayenne with at least 40 miles range pure electric. I've tracked my use this year and 80% of the time this would work running pure electric. On the longer runs the recharging cycle to make these just out of range trips for a pure electric would most likely cause me not to take the trip. I don't want to add 2-3 hours to what is already a long day. So Plug in is the only way I could even look at electric until they can either run 550-600 miles on a charge new (would yield about 430 mile range in five years), or easily be recharged to 80% in 10minutes from public chargers without much hunting. That ain't today or even anything that in coming in the next 2-3 years

[Raza]

I've owned a 911 and it's such a single purpose car in my world that it barely got over 1K-2K miles a year. Since I still have the XK8 I have my limited use vehicle so I don't need a second. Shopping a Porsche would have to be a Panamera or a Cayenne . I've driven both and in all honesty unless you have the latest generation that is currently available of a 911 the current generation of these will do everything the previous generation 911 did. These are multi purpose vehicles that I can actually use and still reap 98% of the Porsche driving experience and seat at least 4 people while being able to haul things.. Plus you can tow a boat behind the Cayenne which is never going to happen with the 911. In my analogy the 911 is the Yacht (given what they now cost and even Boxers and Cayman can easily exceed $100K) that has titanium mooring cables welded to the ship and the anchors on the cables other end were sank in the concrete seawall as it was poured. Nice to look at, but it's never really going to go anywhere except maybe a coffee or breakfast run on Sunday (I should mention all of these are between .25-1.5 miles from the house). The reason these are some of the brands top sellers is that they are true Porsches that can actually be used everyday and have utility. Porsche admits they would not exist as a company without the Cayenne. I've had my 911, but if I'm shopping Porsche these two are the most likely candidates with the Cayenne being the more likely.

I'm not ready for a full electric vehicle (Because they still think 220 miles range is sufficient range...I believe it need to be at least double that and maybe a bit slower), but I would embrace a plug in hybrid version of either the Panamera or the Cayenne with at least 40 miles range pure electric. I've tracked my use this year and 80% of the time this would work running pure electric. On the longer runs the recharging cycle to make these just out of range trips for a pure electric would most likely cause me not to take the trip. I don't want to add 2-3 hours to what is already a long day. So Plug in is the only way I could even look at electric until they can either run 550-600 miles on a charge new (would yield about 430 mile range in five years), or easily be recharged to 80% in 10minutes from public chargers without much hunting. That ain't today or even anything that in coming in the next 2-3 years

Now, granted, I’ve never owned a 911, but I’ve owned a Boxster S and my daily driver has been a Z4 for years now, including when I was commuting ~50 miles a day. I think our standards for what is limited use and what isn’t are different. And that makes sense—we’re at different stages of life with different interests and different needs. I’ve driven several 911s and other than the characteristically heavy clutch across several generations, I’ve found them to be fairly comfortable, even on the broken PA roads I drive around here. I don’t believe I’d have an issue driving a 911 year round, especially one of the C4 models, so I don’t fear snow the way I do now in my summer tire shod Z4. Sure, it doesn’t make it an SUV, but it buys a little time for me to get home if there’s a little accumulation.

You’re right that the Cayenne and Panamera are multi-purpose vehicles and far more practical than a 911. That they’re 98% the same as a proper sports or GT car will be my point of contention, though—if these 4-5,000 pound, automatic, AWD giants are 98% the same driving experience of a 911, then a Toyota Camry must be hovering around 90-92%. There’s no way that under all that weight and all that sound deadening and all those computers making decisions for you that it’s 98% the same driving experience. An automatic 911 isn’t even 98% the same driving experience as a manual one. I’ve driven large, fast luxury sports sedans and SUVs before and they’re boring. They have no feeling. Just a sensation of being pushed back in the seat; there’s little feedback, little sensation, and frankly, not much to get excited about other than a spec sheet. I’ve driven V12s and AMGs and they did little for me. Is a Panamera better to drive than a V12 S class? Probably. Is it bridging the gap between a 5,000 pound, 200”+ luxury sedan and a proper GT car? No way. Whether they suit your life better, whether you enjoy them, it’s not for me to say one way or an other. But let’s be honest about what these cars are. They’re fast luxury cars. The Panamera and Cayenne are not sports or GT cars and they don’t feel like them. Whether Porsche would exist without the Cayenne isn’t up for debate, nor is it relevant—of course the Cayenne saved the company, because it appealed to suburban women who wanted something stylish and impressive to drive their children around and to their husbands who wanted a manly Porsche that they could do dad duties in and not be saddled with a high spec Honda Odyssey or Toyota Sienna.

Sure the Cayenne can tow a boat and the 911 can’t, but why would I ever want to tow a boat in a sports or GT car? That these cars suit your life better, can tow a boat, and appeal to a much wider audience all reinforce my point—they’re not real Porsches in the traditional sense. Sure, I was ribbing mlcor, but there’s a kernel of truth in what I said. They may be great cars, they may be the best in their respective classes even, but that doesn’t make them anything but what they are; fast luxury vehicles. I think we owe it to ourselves to be honest about what these cars are. To say that they’re 98% the driving experience of a 911 while carrying four passengers and towing a boat is intellectually dishonest. They’re nowhere near that. And they’re not meant to be, so that’s okay. It doesn’t make them any less than what they are because they’re meant to be different. They’re the burger on the menu of the restaurant that uses tweezers to plate their other dishes. They keep the lights on and I bet they’re damn tasty, but it’s never going to be beef tartare and foie gras; it’s just a fantastic burger and that’s a triumph enough on its own without being compared to the rest of the menu. I’d happily own one (more a Cayenne than a Panamera, these days I don’t really much see the point in a large fast sedan over a more practical SUV, since I’m not really enjoying the purported sportiness of the cars anyway, I might as well maximize the relative practicality), but the burger is never going to satisfy the way the tartare does.