The cars and bikes thread!

[geoffbot]

manual
adjective

1. relating to or done with the hands.


Feet are optional, by the look of it.

Referring to the dictionary - I like it!

I think Raza has to accept, however he's still right that there is clearly a distinction between a clutch stick manual and a clutchless shift. Again quite simple.

[Raza]

This is worse than the vegan debate in the chat thread! I didn't know what a dct was. Sounds like a clutchless manual? With o auto shift mode? Which of course is still a manual, but clutchless. Quite simple really.

Dual clutch "manuals" are automatic transmissions where, rather than a torque converter, two clutches are used to select gears. They are the ultimate evolution of the discrete gear automatic transmission.

Dual clutch transmissions were invented by Porsche in the late 1970s (the year 1975 comes to mind, but I'm not 100% sure), going into race cars in the mid-80s; what is currently on the market as the PDK (Porsche Doppelkupplungsgetriebe). The idea for dual clutch transmissions, though, came from a fellow named Adolphe Kegresse in 1939, but he never was able to get it to work. Volkswagen brought it to market first, with the 2003 Mark IV Golf R32 and the first in the United States was in the 2003 Audi TT 3.2 V6, under the trade name DSG for "direct shift gearbox".






It was revolutionary at the time; even though DCTs had been used in racing, they hadn't been viable in production cars for decades. And while single-clutch automatic transmissions had also already been on the market, in cars like the Ferrari 355, BMW M3, and Toyota MR-2 Spyder, they were all clunky, user-unfriendly, and basically hot garbage. By using two clutches to preselect the next gear, the DCT made shifting quicker and smoother than that of a single ACT and it was done with less driveline "slush" than a conventional automatic.

While CVTs have struggled with reliability (and that horrible droning noise they make), especially with higher horsepower applications, DCTs are better able to cope with high power now, rendering CVTs the transmission choice for low power economy cars, where fuel mileage is one of the top priorities. DCTs, in my opinion, are the best form of automatic transmission on the market. They do have some issues, however. The clutches are wear parts, for example. And most DCTs are closed units, so it's a hugely expensive job that requires removing the entire transmission to replace the clutches. At least that's how it is on my S4, from what I've read.

[Raza]

manual
adjective

1. relating to or done with the hands.


Feet are optional, by the look of it.

Two can play at that game.

au·to·mat·ic
/ˌôdəˈmadik/
adjective
adjective: automatic
1.
(of a device or process) working by itself with little or no direct human control.

(of a motor vehicle or its transmission) using gears that shift by themselves according to speed and acceleration.



My definition is stronger than yours. You know why?




Because I'm right.

[tribe125]

My definition is stronger than yours.

Hardly. If automatic is ‘working by itself with little or no direct human control’, it doesn’t apply to a gearbox working under the direct control of a human hand.

[Dimman]

Manual clutch.

Done.

[Raza]

Hardly. If automatic is ‘working by itself with little or no direct human control’, it doesn’t apply to a gearbox working under the direct control of a human hand.

Put it in D (the same classification as a conventional automatic, mind you) and it acts on its own. You’re again trying to justify calling it a manual because it has a manual mode, which most, if not all, conventional automatics also have nowadays. So I guess all automatics are manuals too? Alert the press, words no longer have meaning because people don’t want automatic cars to be called automatic.

You also very conveniently ignored the second definition because it directly contradicts your point. Be wrong, if you must, but at least be honest about it. You can be wrong all you want, but I will not stop noting how wrong you are. You have every right to sit there in your wrongness and be wrong, but it doesn’t make you any less wrong.

[tribe125]

Don’t try these logical skills in the courtroom, Raza...

[mlcor]

I just want to say that I HATE CVTs. That is all.

[Raza]

Don’t try these logical skills in the courtroom, Raza...

I am right and you are wrong. There is no skill necessary in that. I’ve discussed technically why that is the case. I’ve shown using the dictionary why that’s the case. If you don’t accept reality, that’s not on me.

Multiple media sources say it’s an automatic. That’s not enough.
Industry standard now describes them as automatics. That’s not enough.
The dictionary defines it as an automatic. That’s not enough.

What will be?

[gnuyork]

Wow... I will just say I like using a clutch with my foot. Even in traffic. I just like it. Oddly enough I hate the push button "manuals" more than just regular automatic... I mean if I can't do it myself then I'll just let the car do it. I don't really care about the micro seconds shaved off the time with the DCT. For me it's the engagement with my feet and hands that's part of the driving experience.