The cars and bikes thread!

[Samanator]

Dual clutch is an automatic. They even describe it as an automatic. It shifts by itself, therefore it is automatic; any argument otherwise is simply incorrect. There are sequential manuals that are not automatic, but to my knowledge, they have never been fitted to a production car, only race cars and motorcycles.

From Car and Driver:
TRANSMISSION 8-speed dual-clutch automatic with manual shifting mode

From Motor Trend:
A standard eight-speed dual-clutch automatic transmission is paired with the LT2

From Road and Track:
The C8 is the first Corvette to offer a dual-clutch automatic, an eight-speed unit designed by Tremec.

So let's just be honest, play no games, and all admit that it's an automatic.

It's not a Corvette because if Ford came out and said the next F-150 is going to be a minivan, it wouldn't be an F-150. If next 911 were front engined, it wouldn't be a 911. If the next Mustang were a sedan, it wouldn't be a Mustang. If the next S class were an SUV, it wouldn't be an S class.

They've fundamentally changed the car that's had the same formula for over 65 years. It's not the same car. And sure, if you squint, from some angles (the back, mostly), it looks vaguely Corvette-ish, it looks like a Corvette the way a Submariner looks like a Seamaster. That is to say that the basics are there, but I don't really see the resemblance.

Gee as we see everywhere sources can be inaccurate. A dual clutch is as I describe it with and automatic mode according to the manufacturer. Make no mistake it has clutches and is a manual transmission. Better ones as this appears to be give full control to the driver in manual mode.

I’ll note that there was a long period (most of the 70s)up until 1982 that no manual was available in a Corvette.

The Corvette is one thing, and that is America’s sports car. Front to mid engine is just one of the many changes through out the years to keep up. Things like the mono leaf spring, joint less drive shaft, transaxle transmission, V8 engine, FI , aluminum engine, super sharing...it is still a true sports car, with a fiberglass body which are really the only truly consistent Corvette features.

Your F150 analogy makes no sense. In the late seventies trucks came with caps on the bed that made them pretty much a van. The current extra cab seating that dominates the market emulates a passenger van. . If the market demanded enclosed beds again they would be more like vans again.

I just wish Chevy would offer a modern DOHC engine like the original ZR1 or an even lighter turbo six like Ford did in GT. Having had both the supercharged eight and six in my two F Types I know the benefits of a less powerful smaller and lighter engine. I think they thought moving the engine and ditching the pushrod V8 was just too much at one time.

Three years from now this will not matter just like the changes to the 911. Remember some also bulked at the electronics in those that made them drivable in the eighties.

[Seriously]

Dual clutch is an automatic. They even describe it as an automatic. It shifts by itself, therefore it is automatic; any argument otherwise is simply incorrect. There are sequential manuals that are not automatic, but to my knowledge, they have never been fitted to a production car, only race cars and motorcycles.

From Car and Driver:
TRANSMISSION 8-speed dual-clutch automatic with manual shifting mode

From Motor Trend:
A standard eight-speed dual-clutch automatic transmission is paired with the LT2

From Road and Track:
The C8 is the first Corvette to offer a dual-clutch automatic, an eight-speed unit designed by Tremec.

So let's just be honest, play no games, and all admit that it's an automatic.

Misinformed - the press and you.

As mentioned by Samanator a dual clutch transmission (DCT or as VW call it a DSG) is a MANUAL cog 'box

The press are incorrectly categorising it as an Auto , technically it's an automated manual 'box, although externally it appears to be automatic (in operation) - it's a completely different kettle of fish to a brake band/epicyclic geared/torque convertor true auto 'box.

ALL that's different is the human clutch operation is removed from the cabin - it WILL clutch/declutch FAR faster than any human can and smoother too.
DCT gear changes are typically a quantum leap difference (see below) to what a human can achieve.

What are you scared of ?.... you've never really given one a chance I think - the cogs are cogs - real manual cogs - there isn't an epicyclic gear or brake band or torque convertor in sight on ANY DCT/DSG 'box

You CAN drive it in MANUAL mode , the only difference is you push or pull to change up or down .... it'll even blip the throttle for you as you change down !
Flick it to manual mode and it's a manual

Official Gearbox shift times (Fastest to slowest):

• Lamborghini Aventador LP 700-4 [Single clutch ISR gearbox]: 50ms^[3]
• Ferrari 430 Scuderia: 60 ms^[4]
• Maserati GranTurismo MC Stradale 2016: 60ms^[5]
• BMW M5 E60 with SMG III: 65-250 ms^[6]
• BMW M3 E46 with SMG II: 80 ms^[7]
• BMW M3 E92 with M-DCT: 80 ms
• Bugatti Veyron (DSG): 100 ms^[8]
• Ferrari FXX: 100 ms^[9]
• Drag car: 100 ms^{[circular reference]}
• Maserati GranTurismo S Cambiocorsa: 100 ms
• Mercedes-Benz SLS AMG: 100 ms^[7]
• Fastest Automatic/semi-automatic transmission: 100 ms
• Lexus LC500: 120ms^[10]
• Chevrolet Camaro ZL1: ~150 ms (36% faster than PDK^[11])
• Clio RS EDC 200: 150 ms (race mode)^[12]
• Enzo Ferrari: 150 ms^[7]
• Nissan GT-R: 150 ms (R Mode)
• FXX Evoluzione: 160 ms
• Lexus LFA: 200 ms

• Ferrari 360 Challenge Stradale & Ferrari F430: 250 ms^[7]

• BMW M3 E36 with SMG I: 250 ms^[7]

• Aston Martin Vanquish: 250 ms^[7]
• The fastest (Race gearbox) manual: 250 ms^{[citation needed]}
• Ferrari 575M: 280 ms
• Lamborghini Performante DCT LDF: 290 ms

Other Mentions:

• AUDI (DSG)(Also S tronic): 8 ms*^{[circular reference]}
• Volkswagen (DSG)(Also S tronic): 8 ms*^{[circular reference]}
• Alfa Romeo Mito & Alfa Romeo Giulietta (2010) Dual Dry Clutch Transmission TCT: 8 ms*^[13]

A human takes anything from 1 second (ish) up to 2+ to do a change.

[geoffbot]

An auto is where you don't change gear yourself. A manual is where you do. If you always use the paddles I guess it's a manual. Not a stick of course which is another way to differentiate. Of course autos are quicker. But manuals (especially stick) is more involved or engaging if you will.

[Raza]

I've driven a 355 and it's a weapon.

Oh that's a 488. Not sure what I drive but here's a pic

That's a 348. Strakes on the door are the giveaway.

[Raza]

So much defensiveness going on. Stop with the mental gymnastics.

Just because it doesn't have a torque converter doesn't mean it's not automatic. It shifts on its own, therefore it is an automatic. Doesn't matter the mechanism by which it shifts, it matters that it does. It's as simple as that.

If you're trying to use manual mode as justification that it's not automatic, I have to inform you that automatics have had manual shift functions for decades. The Tiptronic transmission hit the market in 1991 and no one ever claimed that was a manual because it had a manual mode.

Think about the hoops you're jumping through. "The media outlets are all wrong, because I don't want the transmission to be labeled as an automatic". Come on, you two are better than that. It shifts automatically, it is an automatic. Just because it's built more like a manual than a tradition torque converter automatic doesn't mean it's not still an automatic.


Also, a pickup truck with a bed cap is nothing like a minivan. Don't be ridiculous.

[Raza]

Misinformed - the press and you.

As mentioned by Samanator a dual clutch transmission (DCT or as VW call it a DSG) is a MANUAL cog 'box

The press are incorrectly categorising it as an Auto , technically it's an automated manual 'box, although externally it appears to be automatic (in operation) - it's a completely different kettle of fish to a brake band/epicyclic geared/torque convertor true auto 'box.

It could have 10 clutches, if it shifts on its own, it's an automatic.

ALL that's different is the human clutch operation is removed from the cabin - it WILL clutch/declutch FAR faster than any human can and smoother too.
DCT gear changes are typically a quantum leap difference (see below) to what a human can achieve.

All that's different is that it shifts on its own. All that's different between a human and a chimpanzee is 1% of DNA, but it's a pretty categorical difference.

What are you scared of ?.... you've never really given one a chance I think - the cogs are cogs - real manual cogs - there isn't an epicyclic gear or brake band or torque convertor in sight on ANY DCT/DSG 'box

Scared? Nothing. I have a DSG car. Every time I drive it, I am reminded of much better it would be with a manual. I put it in drive and generally leave it there because manual mode feels nothing like a real manual. Nothing at all.

You CAN drive it in MANUAL mode , the only difference is you push or pull to change up or down .... it'll even blip the throttle for you as you change down !
Flick it to manual mode and it's a manual

No, it isn't. Flick it into manual mode and it acts like a manual. Torque converter automatics do this too.

A human takes anything from 1 second (ish) up to 2+ to do a change.

Who cares? I never said anything about a manual being faster than an automatic to shift. That's not the metric as to whether something is manual or automatic. If I'd said "a manual can shift as fast as an automatic, like the automatic that's in the Corvette", then this is relevant. The automatic that's in the Corvette, my Audi, all Ferraris and Lamborghinis now, they're all faster than manuals. But that's not what I'm talking about.

[Seriously]

There’s no difference between a manual and a DCT other than you have to pump your left foot up and at every change.

No difference whatsoever.

I can only think you like pumping your left foot up and down at every change ......

[Raza]

There’s no difference between a manual and a DCT other than you have to pump your left foot up and at every change.

No difference whatsoever.

That is categorically, definitionally, and undeniably false. You can say that, but you’re simply lying to yourself; not matter how many times you say it, it will never be true.

I can only think you like pumping your left foot up and down at every change ......

Yes. I’ve been saying that all along. I like manual transmissions. You can’t just be getting that now.

[geoffbot]

This is worse than the vegan debate in the chat thread! I didn't know what a dct was. Sounds like a clutchless manual? With o auto shift mode? Which of course is still a manual, but clutchless. Quite simple really.

[tribe125]

manual
adjective

1. relating to or done with the hands.


Feet are optional, by the look of it.