The cars and bikes thread!

[geoffbot]

Geoffers... not sure if one of us is lost in translation... What I'm saying is the for Lotus... the Emira will be the last ICE car. Period.. From what I have read anyway. I'm not saying that 5 years from now there won't be an Emira (cup car or whatever edition they decide). But there will be no other model Lotus that will have an internal combustion engine. All electric moving forward.

Ah yeah gotcha.

[geoffbot]

Ferrari needs a new copywriter

[Raza]

Ferrari needs a new copywriter

AI, the future (and increasingly present) of shit copywriting.

[Raza]

It is quite common in rough trails and when climbing hills with rocks and boulders. You can’t just drive over them, so sometimes you need a mix of trans lock, brake and throttle. Possible on an auto, not possible on a three peddle unless you were born with three legs.

Interesting. I assumed that would be accomplished by slipping the clutch or slowly metering in throttle, but like I said, I don’t know much about off-roading.

While it is an extreme case drive an early 70s US deliver Renault with a manual. I’m not certain they made the wagons and LeCars with automatics, but a half hour in one would have you wanting one. There was nothing in this setup that was anything but horrible including the ratchet clicking clutch. It has to be in the top two of the worst. Against this the manual F type is S2000 slick. This is the difference between dangerous verses not engineered for its intended purpose.

In the F Type they through in something that was sitting on the shelf that fit in the space and changed the reared gear with something that was as close as they could come with something off the shelf. Lists of companies do this, but at the F Type price point throwing something in because a marketing guy tells you they need a manual is not acceptable. The counter to this is the ZF8 speed cracks off manual shifts instantly and the automatic programming shifts 99% of the time where you would or should. This came from engineering and refinement.

Put a clutch that works linearly with less force required to move, shorten the shifter throws about 50%, and use a linkage that doesn’t bind on all the forward throws. Miata’s do this in a car that cost 1/5 of the F Type, and even Civics do this much better with cables not direct internal linkages like the Jag.

Maybe manuals would be more plentiful if what they gave us manuals that work right. Consider the cars that move decent volumes of manuals, they actually have manual setups that work correctly. If this gets on that marketing guys requirements then maybe we would have higher quality manuals and not the $hit sandwiches some companies send us.

An article in the Porsche clubs annual magazine a few years back said the engineers at Porsche have tried to kill manuals for good at Porsche for over 12 years. The owners are demanding more manuals and they need to be highly refined. Notice who won and what they got as far as manuals set up.

You obsess over PLC’s in a $5K watch but will accept a half baked Trans and clutch in a $70K car with a smile on your face. Demand more!


Food for thought Lexus has been working four years now on a manual trans for the up coming EV super car. When EV are actually fully viable we may still have manuals.

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Sure, you can pick and choose bad transmissions from 50 years ago and say that it had contemporary autos were better, but that really doesn’t have much relevance to someone who was born in the decline of the manual already. I think saying that the decline of the manual is due to the fact that not all of them were as good as the S2000 or a a BMW shifter also ignores the reality of a society that views driving as a chore and an interruption of their texting time rather than something to enjoy (or even fear, because most people don’t grasp that driving is the literally the most dangerous thing most people will ever do in their lives). As the majority of people viewed driving the same way they view folding laundry, of course enthusiast transmissions—and cars—were going to dwindle.

As for the poetic waxing on the ZF 8 speed, I’ve driven many ZF 8 speeds. They all suck, like every modern automatic transmission that tries to be a manual. No matter the programming, no matter how fast it shifts, it will never, never, never approximate the experience of driving a manual and there will always be an extra layer of decision making between you and the transmission. Polished center links are an aesthetic choice. It’s not comparable to one of the three major controls of a car being taken away from you and given to a computer. Demand more? I am demanding more. I’m demanding control and involvement with my car and the driving experience. That’s what I’m demanding. You and I both know that it’s not nearly as simple as “make a better transmission”; manufacturing, engineering, and selling a product happens in reality and reality is constrained by budget. Otherwise everything would be the best thing ever and we’d all drive race cars and people would stop dying in car accidents. That’s not how the world works, you know that and I know that and it’s intellectually dishonest to assert otherwise. We know how manufacturing works and we know how budgeting works for large projects. Let’s not pretend we don’t. Even Lego sets are built to a budget, I mean, come on.

If I say on a watch enthusiast site that I don’t want to buy a quartz watch and someone says “Quartz watches tell better time, are more durable, and more reliable than automatics”, my answer will be the same as if someone told me that automatic transmissions are smoother and faster and even more fuel efficient than manuals. I don’t care. I don’t value the things automatics give me. I don’t. I don’t value what quartz gives me either. You’re telling me that the food you’re eating is the best food, but I’m allergic, so it doesn’t matter to me. Cars that can park themselves better than I can don’t matter to me. I’m interested in the mechanical feel and aspect and involvement of driving. No computer will ever replace that. No computer will ever replicate that. Just like I care a lot about the accuracy of mechanical watches but do not care one bit that quartz watches are more accurate. If the F-Type manual is indeed as bad as you say, then the F-Type is simply not the car for me. Unfortunate, sure, but well, there are always 911s to choose from.

If I’m in a car that has an automatic, I want it to be the best, smoothest, quietest appliance I can find, just like I want my dishwasher to be quiet and the dishes to come out clean. What I don’t want is a dishwasher with a mode that allows me to pretend I’m washing the dishes by hand. There’s no value in that for me. Modern autos aren’t that smooth compared to, say, the GM sourced box that BMW used in E34 5ers. Drive one of those and then get into a car with a ZF 8 speed and try to tell me that the ZF is better at being an automatic. It’s not. These Tiptronic style gearboxes are compromised marketing “solutions” to marketing problems. Same with single clutch ACTs and dual clutch ACTs.

And even if all that isn’t true, if everything I said was inaccurate, I still will always prefer a manual to an automatic because that’s my preference. I also like vanilla ice cream and think chocolate ice cream is gross. There’s no statistic or anecdote that will ever change that. I don’t know why that’s a problem for you. We have different preferences and that’s okay. What I don’t like is you talking down to me like I’m a child and telling me what I’m supposed to like or want. So if I sound defensive now, that’s why. I’m a grown man, I get to decide what I like and what I don’t and what I value and what I don’t.

[crownpuller]

...the experience of driving a manual and there will always be an extra layer of decision making between you and the transmission.

I’m demanding control and involvement with my car and the driving experience.

Just that. If you're not involved, you may as well just get a taxi/uber.

If I say on a watch enthusiast site that I don’t want to buy a quartz watch and someone says “Quartz watches tell better time, are more durable, and more reliable than automatics”, my answer will be the same as if someone told me that automatic transmissions are smoother and faster and even more fuel efficient than manuals. I don’t care. I don’t value the things automatics give me. I don’t. I don’t value what quartz gives me either. You’re telling me that the food you’re eating is the best food, but I’m allergic, so it doesn’t matter to me. Cars that can park themselves better than I can don’t matter to me. I’m interested in the mechanical feel and aspect and involvement of driving. No computer will ever replace that. No computer will ever replicate that. Just like I care a lot about the accuracy of mechanical watches but do not care one bit that quartz watches are more accurate.

I'm with you all the way with that.

What I don’t want is a dishwasher with a mode that allows me to pretend I’m washing the dishes by hand.

That analogy cracked me up.

I get to decide what I like and what I don’t and what I value and what I don’t.

Yeah, I've been trying to tell my wife that for 20 odd years.

[mlcor]

Yeah, I've been trying to tell my wife that for 20 odd years.

...and I bet you've lost that battle every time.

[geoffbot]

Oh my god. The build to end all builds. F40 https://youtu.be/bv2ewORLIuI?si=ANLEIJNUPmp9MG4i

[pacifico66]

Spent a day with the Mach 1 it's the wife's ride I have only driven it around a dozen times so figured I would wash it and give it a shakedown, a few takeaways from my drive.We just fitted new sport cup 2 tires ( they last about 8000 miles but realistically less) and this will be the last set too expensive and way too sticky for the street
I am going to go with something more suited to the street next time.The Tremec 6 speed is fantastic, no lift shifting(fun but sketchy),rev matches up and down and truly a joy to drive like @Samantor i hate a sloppy manual i think is one of the best I have ever driven but this car is not a daily driver it's all hands on deck when pushing it both hands on the wheel and no radio playing it wants you to pay attention and listen to what's happening (it's a lot ) all this being said I concede my wife drives it far better then I do and probably gets 8/10 th's out it's potential.The final bit is the sand pile thrown up from the tires that i emptied out of the rear diffusior which i thought was hilarious it's a toy but a well executed one

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[tribe125]

Just a nice picture of a car -

[Samanator]

Interesting. I assumed that would be accomplished by slipping the clutch or slowly metering in throttle, but like I said, I don’t know much about off-roading.



Sure, you can pick and choose bad transmissions from 50 years ago and say that it had contemporary autos were better, but that really doesn’t have much relevance to someone who was born in the decline of the manual already. I think saying that the decline of the manual is due to the fact that not all of them were as good as the S2000 or a a BMW shifter also ignores the reality of a society that views driving as a chore and an interruption of their texting time rather than something to enjoy (or even fear, because most people don’t grasp that driving is the literally the most dangerous thing most people will ever do in their lives). As the majority of people viewed driving the same way they view folding laundry, of course enthusiast transmissions—and cars—were going to dwindle.

As for the poetic waxing on the ZF 8 speed, I’ve driven many ZF 8 speeds. They all suck, like every modern automatic transmission that tries to be a manual. No matter the programming, no matter how fast it shifts, it will never, never, never approximate the experience of driving a manual and there will always be an extra layer of decision making between you and the transmission. Polished center links are an aesthetic choice. It’s not comparable to one of the three major controls of a car being taken away from you and given to a computer. Demand more? I am demanding more. I’m demanding control and involvement with my car and the driving experience. That’s what I’m demanding. You and I both know that it’s not nearly as simple as “make a better transmission”; manufacturing, engineering, and selling a product happens in reality and reality is constrained by budget. Otherwise everything would be the best thing ever and we’d all drive race cars and people would stop dying in car accidents. That’s not how the world works, you know that and I know that and it’s intellectually dishonest to assert otherwise. We know how manufacturing works and we know how budgeting works for large projects. Let’s not pretend we don’t. Even Lego sets are built to a budget, I mean, come on.

If I say on a watch enthusiast site that I don’t want to buy a quartz watch and someone says “Quartz watches tell better time, are more durable, and more reliable than automatics”, my answer will be the same as if someone told me that automatic transmissions are smoother and faster and even more fuel efficient than manuals. I don’t care. I don’t value the things automatics give me. I don’t. I don’t value what quartz gives me either. You’re telling me that the food you’re eating is the best food, but I’m allergic, so it doesn’t matter to me. Cars that can park themselves better than I can don’t matter to me. I’m interested in the mechanical feel and aspect and involvement of driving. No computer will ever replace that. No computer will ever replicate that. Just like I care a lot about the accuracy of mechanical watches but do not care one bit that quartz watches are more accurate. If the F-Type manual is indeed as bad as you say, then the F-Type is simply not the car for me. Unfortunate, sure, but well, there are always 911s to choose from.

If I’m in a car that has an automatic, I want it to be the best, smoothest, quietest appliance I can find, just like I want my dishwasher to be quiet and the dishes to come out clean. What I don’t want is a dishwasher with a mode that allows me to pretend I’m washing the dishes by hand. There’s no value in that for me. Modern autos aren’t that smooth compared to, say, the GM sourced box that BMW used in E34 5ers. Drive one of those and then get into a car with a ZF 8 speed and try to tell me that the ZF is better at being an automatic. It’s not. These Tiptronic style gearboxes are compromised marketing “solutions” to marketing problems. Same with single clutch ACTs and dual clutch ACTs.

And even if all that isn’t true, if everything I said was inaccurate, I still will always prefer a manual to an automatic because that’s my preference. I also like vanilla ice cream and think chocolate ice cream is gross. There’s no statistic or anecdote that will ever change that. I don’t know why that’s a problem for you. We have different preferences and that’s okay. What I don’t like is you talking down to me like I’m a child and telling me what I’m supposed to like or want. So if I sound defensive now, that’s why. I’m a grown man, I get to decide what I like and what I don’t and what I value and what I don’t.

Regarding the rock climbing this can't be accomplished since the brake had to be presses to lock the front wheels on the rock. No leg available to operate the clutch and the brake. Emergency brakes operate on the rear wheels only so the front wheel that needs the braking can't and the rear wheel which is braking allows a pivote point that could allow the front unlocked wheel to slide off into a dangerous situation.

I guess our differences are I will take the Manual as first choice only if it is done well and you will take the manual regardless of how it is executed. I have similar standards for drive wheels with a pecking order of AWD, rear wheel drive and then front wheel drive. for street cars For racing it would be a tough call between AWD and RWD since each has an advantage depending on the track and the car.

I understand your desire for a manual, but I was offering options you don't want. I 'm not certain I agree about the lag in shifting for all auto manuals. The shift time specs far exceed what could be done in a manual. My belief is they are more instantious than you may think, but some other factor may be leading you to believe they have not engaged yet. I've never understood why cars don't use sequential gear boxes. They seem to be able to package them in motorcycles in various configurations. I guess maybe the lack of reverse which could be done via a starter motor or contained in with some form of lock out are possible. The shifter would then be more of a back and forth shifting action like a motorcycle (I know not as cool as a H pattern). I believe F1 cars (And many other forms of race cars)are like this and also have a clutch to disengage the drive. This past week during the F1 race there was mention of pressing the clutch. We had a Red Bull car a few time at the office when were sponsoring them, but I never looked down the drivers tunnel to see if it had a clutch pedal(It was never a current car to make the current chassis not available for public inspection). They probably put back the clutch when they outlawed traction control. With this configuration you could slip the clutch at the start putting more of the driver into the equation.