The cars and bikes thread!

[Raza]

I don't know if they lost there way except in the form of offering something affordable worthy of being called a Porsche. Bot that Cayman and Boxsters are running well into 6 figures there is really nothing affordable left. I dislike the Macan, but love the Cayene ( which I initially hatted it). The Macan feels more like a VW than a Porsche regardless of what they do to it. Kind of the same feeling I had about the old 914. The Cayenne on the street can do very enjoyable while hauling four people and their stuff. Mostly on the track is where it falls apart due to its weight. Also, It will never be a looker like a 911 . I consider electric vehicles toys until the day I can get in one and go anywhere and not worry about anything like I do in a ICE vehicle.

Almost all their cars—if not all now—are automatic only.

[Raza]

Linkage was junk with gear selection allover the place. Not 1977 Chevy Nova keep pulling or pushing until it engages somewhere. Clutch could be a light switch since it catches right at the very end, but needs to be press down the whole way to release. Makes the six speed manual in the first generation IS300 Lexus seem like a Miata or S2000 by comparison. It took a real feat of engineering to make it that bad in both directions.

I don't see why you defend something with I read and never drove it. I have driven (or owned) it along with every variant and configuration of the F type. I've also have read reviews and most articles state after driving it no matter how much you want a manual you'll wish you took the excellent ZF 8 speed automatic. This is not an enjoyable manual. Fun manuals worth being the only transmission choice are Miata's, S2000, Mustang Dark Horse (and I assume the Mach 1 before it), C7 Z06, Camero LT1. Honda Civic Type R, Integra R, and Current Porsche's that have them to name a few. I had a Jeep Wrangler with. a 6 speed manual and it did nothing to improve the fun factor and everyday I wished I bought the Automatic. Some claim the manual has some off road beneits, but most are negated by not being able to use thebrake anf throttle at the same time. I had the manual in my Porsche Carrrera 4S Cab and in all honesty it would have been a coin toss against the Tiptronic version. I find Porsche Tiptronic shifting manually more fun than a manual. On the road being able to slip the clutch has some minor corning benefits at throttle reengagement, but a sloppy shifter (like the F type) would ruin that. I get the fun of nailing a manuals shift points down a great road, but not if it is a POS.

I’m not necessarily defending it, I’m simply stating that your opinion isn’t the only one—and I’d be foolish to take any of them, yours included, as gospel.

As for the debate between a manual and automatic, my feelings here are clear. The worst manual transmission is still better to me than the best automatic. I’ve never driven a car with a manual so bad I would want an automatic instead and I’ve driven some cars with some fairly awful gearboxes. Pressing a button or pulling a paddle and waiting for a computer to decide whether my input should be heeded or ignored is not fun for me. I tried to convince myself of that when I owned an automatic car, but now when I drive automatics, I leave it in drive, because it’s far more frustrating to me to work a transmission that doesn’t listen, which many of them don’t, than to put it in drive and let the computer make the decisions it wants to. It’s not worth the argument with it.

I don’t know much about off-roading, admittedly, but under what circumstances would you want to apply the brakes and throttle at the same time?

[Raza]

...and they're phasing out ICE models (unlke Porsche).

Right. The Emira is the last.

Well then, forget what I said. Cars are over. No more manuals in VW, Mini, Lotus, Aston Martin, Lamborghini, and Porsche and BMW are dwindling in their manual choices to the point that extinction is inevitable.

[geoffbot]

They were announced at the same time, but it looks like the AMG sourced versions are now just starting to roll out. Personally I'd rather have the supercharged V6 with manual. I'm not saying these are the last ICE cars, but the Emira (in general) will be. They may make other versions, like a more aggressive cup car or a GT version. Who knows, but they typically do that. The current versions are the "1st" editions.

Nope, they have a 350bhp amg and they're gonna, eventually, do a 400bhp one.

[geoffbot]

Jag are killing off all their cars except the f pace, I think, and kinda stopping making cars for a while I read? Can't find the sources now annoyingly.

[geoffbot]

Hell yeah! New lfr! https://www.carscoops.com/2024/10/le...ad-going-form/

[gnuyork]

Nope, they have a 350bhp amg and they're gonna, eventually, do a 400bhp one.

Huh? From what I have read and understand, the Emira will certainly be the last ICE car Lotus makes and that whatever future versions of the Emira... not just the current 1st editions.

[geoffbot]

Huh? From what I have read and understand, the Emira will certainly be the last ICE car Lotus makes and that whatever future versions of the Emira... not just the current 1st editions.

https://www.topgear.com/car-news/fir...der-sports-car

[gnuyork]

https://www.topgear.com/car-news/fir...der-sports-car

Geoffers... not sure if one of us is lost in translation... What I'm saying is the for Lotus... the Emira will be the last ICE car. Period.. From what I have read anyway. I'm not saying that 5 years from now there won't be an Emira (cup car or whatever edition they decide). But there will be no other model Lotus that will have an internal combustion engine. All electric moving forward.

[Samanator]

I’m not necessarily defending it, I’m simply stating that your opinion isn’t the only one—and I’d be foolish to take any of them, yours included, as gospel.

As for the debate between a manual and automatic, my feelings here are clear. The worst manual transmission is still better to me than the best automatic. I’ve never driven a car with a manual so bad I would want an automatic instead and I’ve driven some cars with some fairly awful gearboxes. Pressing a button or pulling a paddle and waiting for a computer to decide whether my input should be heeded or ignored is not fun for me. I tried to convince myself of that when I owned an automatic car, but now when I drive automatics, I leave it in drive, because it’s far more frustrating to me to work a transmission that doesn’t listen, which many of them don’t, than to put it in drive and let the computer make the decisions it wants to. It’s not worth the argument with it.

I don’t know much about off-roading, admittedly, but under what circumstances would you want to apply the brakes and throttle at the same time?

It is quite common in rough trails and when climbing hills with rocks and boulders. You can’t just drive over them, so sometimes you need a mix of trans lock, brake and throttle. Possible on an auto, not possible on a three peddle unless you were born with three legs.

While it is an extreme case drive an early 70s US deliver Renault with a manual. I’m not certain they made the wagons and LeCars with automatics, but a half hour in one would have you wanting one. There was nothing in this setup that was anything but horrible including the ratchet clicking clutch. It has to be in the top two of the worst. Against this the manual F type is S2000 slick. This is the difference between dangerous verses not engineered for its intended purpose.

In the F Type they through in something that was sitting on the shelf that fit in the space and changed the reared gear with something that was as close as they could come with something off the shelf. Lists of companies do this, but at the F Type price point throwing something in because a marketing guy tells you they need a manual is not acceptable. The counter to this is the ZF8 speed cracks off manual shifts instantly and the automatic programming shifts 99% of the time where you would or should. This came from engineering and refinement.

Put a clutch that works linearly with less force required to move, shorten the shifter throws about 50%, and use a linkage that doesn’t bind on all the forward throws. Miata’s do this in a car that cost 1/5 of the F Type, and even Civics do this much better with cables not direct internal linkages like the Jag.

Maybe manuals would be more plentiful if what they gave us manuals that work right. Consider the cars that move decent volumes of manuals, they actually have manual setups that work correctly. If this gets on that marketing guys requirements then maybe we would have higher quality manuals and not the $hit sandwiches some companies send us.

An article in the Porsche clubs annual magazine a few years back said the engineers at Porsche have tried to kill manuals for good at Porsche for over 12 years. The owners are demanding more manuals and they need to be highly refined. Notice who won and what they got as far as manuals set up.

You obsess over PLC’s in a $5K watch but will accept a half baked Trans and clutch in a $70K car with a smile on your face. Demand more!


Food for thought Lexus has been working four years now on a manual trans for the up coming EV super car. When EV are actually fully viable we may still have manuals.

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