The cars and bikes thread!

[Strela167]

Wrong thread?

[Samanator]

Not sure about exotics, either, at least not new ones. Ferrari, Lamborghini, McLaren, no manuals left. Lotus is your best bet right now, along with Porsche (which isn’t exotic, of course). Pretty soon you won’t even find a pure internal combustion engine in the exotics.

I would consider a Porsche more exotic than a Lotus. Lotus's current hot car has a Toyota Camry engine which doesn't sound all that exotic to me? Given current Porsche price points in excess of $200K I at least see them as exotic. Anything 911 with a GT in it's name blows right past that even at a base levels and they are nearly impossible to get. All indicators of exotics.

According to Car and Driver Porshe engineers were quoted as saying they wish Americans would get over their delusions about manual transmissions. The PDK is superior in every way and if not for the US there would not be any manuals left in Porsche vehicles.

[gnuyork]

I would consider a Porsche more exotic than a Lotus. Lotus's current hot car has a Toyota Camry engine which doesn't sound all that exotic to me? Given current Porsche price points in excess of $200K I at least see them as exotic. Anything 911 with a GT in it's name blows right past that even at a base levels and they are nearly impossible to get. All indicators of exotics.

According to Car and Driver Porshe engineers were quoted as saying they wish Americans would get over their delusions about manual transmissions. The PDK is superior in every way and if not for the US there would not be any manuals left in Porsche vehicles.

Re: manual transmision - No offense, Micheal, but you don't get it. It's not about superior performance... at least for me, and I'm sure, Raza, and many who prefer to shift manually with a clutch. And Porsche is not exotic, but Lotus for certain is, regardless of the Toyota engine. Exotic does not mean expensive or hard to get. Have you even heard a Lotus Toyota engine? It sounds way more exotic than a Porsche (in my opinion).

[mlcor]

I would consider a Porsche more exotic than a Lotus. Lotus's current hot car has a Toyota Camry engine which doesn't sound all that exotic to me? Given current Porsche price points in excess of $200K I at least see them as exotic. Anything 911 with a GT in it's name blows right past that even at a base levels and they are nearly impossible to get. All indicators of exotics.

I was thinking in terms of scarcity vs. ubiquity.


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[gnuyork]

If this is not Exotic, I don't know what is...

[tribe125]

If you’re English, something from Norfolk can’t be exotic.

[happyscrappyheropup]

Re: manual transmision - No offense, Micheal, but you don't get it. It's not about superior performance... at least for me, and I'm sure, Raza, and many who prefer to shift manually with a clutch.

The problem that Porsche and other manufacturers are running in to is that dual clutch automated manuals or torque converter autos are better in every measurable way compared to manual transmissions. It is difficult to justify the expense of a manual transmission for a tiny group of dedicated manual transmission enthusiasts. On a car making a lot of power, having the computer control the clutch engagement can help extend the life of drivetrain components, too. Axles, diffs, driveshafts, u joints, clutch discs and flywheels, etc - they all suffer more when you let the monkey behind the wheel control the clutch.

Back in the day, autos and sequential transmissions were terrible. Autos sucked up power, even with lockup converters there was still a lot of parasitic loss. They were complex with converters, pumps and planetary gears frequently failing. Fuel economy suffered, especially in non-lock up automatics. Service was difficult and there was increased maintenance due to wear of internal parts, fluid and filter changes needed to be more frequent. The first mass produced SMG/DSG/whatever sequential automated manuals were prone to failure, slow to shift, and were a pain in the ass in stop and go. Modern versions of these auto/sequential transmissions don't suffer the same problems, and they are accelerate quicker with better fuel economy.

In cars with both transmissions offered, the manuals are usually slower and get worse fuel economy. My ZL1 was the same way - the 10 speed automatic was quicker around a track, quicker in a straight line, and got better fuel economy.

I'm not arguing against manuals, but there are reasons why they are not as popular for performance cars. And, I'll restate previous criticism about them - it's difficult to drive a fast car at the limit with a manual trans. I still have a manual in my Z06, but only because it's difficult to swap to anything else that will live behind big power and not be a drag only setup.

And Porsche is not exotic, but Lotus for certain is, regardless of the Toyota engine. Exotic does not mean expensive or hard to get. Have you even heard a Lotus Toyota engine? It sounds way more exotic than a Porsche (in my opinion).

I think some Porsche and Lotus are exotic cars. The last couple 911 generations have been amazing cars.

[litlmn]

I don't have a dog in this fight, as I've never owned a manual (thought I did learn to drive one on a 944). To me, the love for a manual is more about the driving experience nowadays, rather than performance related. I sit in too much traffic to ever really have considered one.

As for Exotics, I think there are a few as an entire brand i.e. Pagani, Koenigsegg, MacLaren, Bugatti. I think that Porsche and Lotus, among others have exotic models (Carrera GT, Evora, Enzo). Just my 2 cents.

[happyscrappyheropup]

I don't have a dog in this fight, as I've never owned a manual (thought I did learn to drive one on a 944). To me, the love for a manual is more about the driving experience nowadays, rather than performance related. I sit in too much traffic to ever really have considered one.

To me it's horses for courses.

But the reality is very few manufacturers have the luxury of building a car that's fun to drive without worrying about objective performance like cornering and acceleration or outright fuel economy.

[Raza]

I would consider a Porsche more exotic than a Lotus. Lotus's current hot car has a Toyota Camry engine which doesn't sound all that exotic to me? Given current Porsche price points in excess of $200K I at least see them as exotic. Anything 911 with a GT in it's name blows right past that even at a base levels and they are nearly impossible to get. All indicators of exotics.

There’s more to being an exotic than an engine. Porsches are downright common compared to Lotus and I’m sure much cheaper to work on should something happen to the bodywork.

According to Car and Driver Porshe engineers were quoted as saying they wish Americans would get over their delusions about manual transmissions. The PDK is superior in every way and if not for the US there would not be any manuals left in Porsche vehicles.

PDK is a superior racing transmission, sure.

I don’t live on a racetrack, however. They’re crap on the road, just like automatics are crap on the road and single ACTs are even crappier than DCTs and automatics. Even Audi is ditching DCTs in many of their cars in favor of traditional automatics.