SOCCER SPORT !

[tribe125]

What Messi and Ronaldo are doing today are more than what the older players did. They are beating almost all of their records and doing it against far better opponents. Compare the lower level teams in England today with what Best played against.

Yes, you have a point, and teams of the past were also less efficient at denying space. On the other hand, the lesser teams usually had a couple of hard nuts who specialised in kicking skillful players up in the air. Modern players are better protected. There were other differences. British players of Best's era spent half the season playing on mud and they didn't have the flattering footballs of today. Players were also less likely to move clubs, which meant that they couldn't be sure of having quality players around them. Some of the United sides that Best played in were not that great.

Best did rate Ronaldo. There were always questions of 'Is this the new Best?' when promising players came along. When asked about Ronaldo in this context, Best said (paraphrasing): "Well, it's the first time I've been flattered by any of the comparisons..."

Pele once acknowledged the supremacy of George Best - but then Pele has said a lot of things, depending on what country he was in and who he was talking to.

I think most of the great players would be equally pre-eminent today. It may also be true of the 'pure' goalscorers. Denis Law, Jimmy Greaves, Gerd Muller and Luigi Riva would all be scoring a load of goals today.

And then there are players we've hardly heard of. Italians will tell you that Giuseppe Meazza was one of the best players that ever lived.

Like I say, they're all great and would almost certainly have been great in any era. We tend not to ask whether Fangio would have been any good in a modern F1 car, so I'm not sure why we think differently about footballers.

[OTGabe]

Yes, you have a point, and teams of the past were also less efficient at denying space. On the other hand, the lesser teams usually had a couple of hard nuts who specialised in kicking skillful players up in the air. Modern players are better protected. There were other differences. British players of Best's era spent half the season playing on mud and they didn't have the flattering footballs of today. Players were also less likely to move clubs, which meant that they couldn't be sure of having quality players around them. Some of the United sides that Best played in were not that great.

All good points that I wanted to make yesterday but didn't have time. Especially the one about player protection. With his size, Messi would have been clobbered mercilessly had he played decades ago. No way would he have been allowed to stroll about the penalty area untouched the way players do today. The idea that past greats couldn't be even better if you dropped them onto a superteam like Barca and allowed them to play with such protection seems ludicrous to me. You simply can't compare eras in sport due to rule changes and differences in the way the games are officiated. The debate is fun, but ultimately meaningless.

There has been much debate about this in the NBA with the rise of Curry, a small guy who can launch shots from incredible range. While he may be one of the best shooters of his era, his numbers take a significant dip in the playoffs when the refs tend to swallow the whistle and allow much rougher play (though still far tamer than the game was 25 years ago). Had he been taking that same physical abuse every game of his career, who's to say that he would have ever even had the chance to develop into the player he is now.

[bolaberlim]

All good points that I wanted to make yesterday but didn't have time. Especially the one about player protection. With his size, Messi would have been clobbered mercilessly had he played decades ago. No way would he have been allowed to stroll about the penalty area untouched the way players do today. The idea that past greats couldn't be even better if you dropped them onto a superteam like Barca and allowed them to play with such protection seems ludicrous to me. You simply can't compare eras in sport due to rule changes and differences in the way the games are officiated. The debate is fun, but ultimately meaningless.

There has been much debate about this in the NBA with the rise of Curry, a small guy who can launch shots from incredible range. While he may be one of the best shooters of his era, his numbers take a significant dip in the playoffs when the refs tend to swallow the whistle and allow much rougher play (though still far tamer than the game was 25 years ago). Had he been taking that same physical abuse every game of his career, who's to say that he would have ever even had the chance to develop into the player he is now.

I always remember a story about a game between Cardiff and Sporting CP, Figueiredo from Sporting got a broken leg 13 minutes from end time. There were no substitutions left so he played the rest of the game with a broken leg. Who would do that these days? And what's this 3 substitutions thing? I have to disagree, todays football is not better or tougher or more physical. It is more technologically advanced and performance oriented. Everyone is cuddled and receives the best possible treatment. I'd rank all of those guys already mentioned ahead of any modern footballer.

Messi is a cheat, always have been, always will be. It's been my opinion for years and facts keep reinforcing it. And my favorite player is not Cristiano, my favorite player is Quaresma. We call him the Gipsy- because he is- Harry potter, because he pulls rabbits out of his hat, the Mustang , I have no idea why. His first senior coach once said that what made him a great player was also what would make him a pariah, he was right. He's had trouble everywhere he went, in all the clubs he went through. He his a wild one, doesn't follow rules, and that costed him in his career. He is also the grand nephew of Artur Quaresma, a player that in 1938 in a match between Portugal and Spain, with Franco and Salazar in attendance, with representatives of Mussolini and Hitler also in attendance, was one of three players who refused to do the Nazi salute. All three were arrested after the match. Being wild seems to run in the family. I rank Quaresma higher than Messi as well, i just don't do it loudly or in the presence of anyone I know. He's not really better but to me he is. Cristiano on the other hand, is really better.

[Raza]

Holy shit, France actually won!?

[tribe125]

Holy shit, France actually won!?

Good, eh?

The penalty might not have been given by some referees, but I'm pleased to see the most watchable side in the final.

[Raza]

Good, eh?

The penalty might not have been given by some referees, but I'm pleased to see the most watchable side in the final.

Vive France!

[OTGabe]

The handball rule definitely needs to be refined. I think yesterday's call was correct, and that's how I've usually seen it called when I played and in my years of coaching youth soccer. Having intent in the rule is confusing and impossible to enforce fairly. If you get your hand in an unnatural position and it denies the other team an opportunity that they would have otherwise had (shot, pass, play on ball), then call it. Evra was in a good position and Schweinsteiger barreled in and kept him from making a play by using his hands. I don't believe that he went in there thinking that he was going to punch the ball away, but why should that matter?

We had a situation last year where a penalty was given against my U11 team when a defender cleared a shot attempt in front of our goal, but our midfielder standing at the edge of the area had a brain fart and handled the ball. A PK was given and we lost the game, which ultimately caused us to finish second in the league instead of first. Everyone was upset but I had no complaint as it was a penalty by the letter of the law. But in the spirit of the law, we had already broken up the attack and my player's action actually stopped what would have been a dangerous counterattack for our team. The handball happened as the ball was leaving the box, with no opposing players in the vicinity. I could understand the frustration of the boys to have that called while so many other handballs that actually affect the run of play are waved off as unintentional.

[meijlinder]

I don't think it's the decision in itself yesterday that's the issue. It's that it's rarely called like that. And now it happened for France in France.

Would also argue that Germany could been given a penalty on either one of their two shouts. The wrestling down on a corner and I think it was Müller who got his heals clipped just inside the box. These two close calls going one way then the other equally close gets called.

But I totally agree on changing the handball rules. Get rid of intent and instead add something like "gain unfair advantage due to hand/arm away from body"

[tribe125]

The difficulty lies in having a rule that applies to the whole of the pitch, which is then applied consistently across the whole of the pitch.

It shouldn't be difficult to draft the rule, but we would need to drop the notion that the penalty area is somehow different.

[Raza]

The difficulty lies in having a rule that applies to the whole of the pitch, which is then applied consistently across the whole of the pitch.

It shouldn't be difficult to draft the rule, but we would need to drop the notion that the penalty area is somehow different.

That's an issue for every rule. They always allow more fouls in the box to go unpunished than they do in the outfield. Fouls in the box need to be egregious for them to call a penalty.